WEBVTT

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DOMETI PONGO: On
this day in 1960,

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the FW Woolworth lunch
counter was desegregated

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following a six
month long protest

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in Greensboro, North Carolina.

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It's also been seven years
since Black Lives Matter was

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founded in response
to the acquittal

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of Trayvon Martin's murder.

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I'm Dometi Pongo, and
over the next few weeks

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we'll be drawing parallels
between these significant

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moments in history and what we
see happening on the streets

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today.

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History can give us the context
to better understand what we're

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living through today, I'm
honored to have the opportunity

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to speak to one of our
country's leading historians

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about how understanding
our history

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can help us to move forward.

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I'll be in conversation
with Lonnie Bunch, who

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was the first African-American
secretary of the Smithsonian

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Institution and the
founding director

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of the Smithsonian's
National Museum

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of African-American
History and Culture.

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And we'll chat about
the roles of music,

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marches, media, memory, and
social justice movements.

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[MUSIC PLAYING]

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First of all, Secretary,
thank you so much for having

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this conversation with me.

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Tell me what happened at
the Woolworth counter.

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LONNIE BUNCH: Suddenly,
college kids felt, I

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can participate in the
civil rights movement

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by simply sitting down.

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Four college students
from North Carolina A&T

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decided they had
to do something.

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One of their friends
had been mistreated

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at a lunch counter in Richmond.

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And when he came back
to college, they said,

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we've got to do something.

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They thought, let's
sit-in at Woolworth's.

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And what they did is they sat
in and over a period of months,

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ultimately Woolworth's had
to change their policy.

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But was most important is
that became a tactic that was

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used all around the country.

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And so the notion of
sitting-in at lunch counters

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became one of the
most important tactics

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of the civil rights
movement that really began

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with the Greensboro sit-in.

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WOMAN: We're going sit-in
until we can eat in any counter

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in the United States.

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DOMETI PONGO: And I understand
you have a personal connection

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to this too.

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LONNIE BUNCH: When I was a
kid growing up in New Jersey,

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I would go shop with my mother
and my aunt and, if I was good,

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they'd let me go to Woolworth's.

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And I'd sit down and get
a Woolworth's hamburger.

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I thought that was
the promised land.

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And so I'm about seven
or eight years old,

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and my aunt takes me to visit
a relative in North Carolina.

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And so they're slow, and
I'm running ahead of them,

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and I see a Woolworth's.

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So I jump in the
Woolworth's, I sit down,

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I'm ready for my hamburger,
and these two white hands

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pick me up and move
me over to the colored

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section, which had no seats,
and made me stand there.

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And my aunt comes running in.

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I couldn't tell why
she's all upset.

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And they ordered me a hamburger,
and it didn't taste the same,

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and I never went to another
Woolworth's from that moment

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on.

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So then, years
later, I'm working

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as a curator at the National
Museum of American History

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and I hear that the
Woolworth's is closing.

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And I thought, I bet we could
collect that lunch counter.

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So ultimately, I went down to
Greensboro with a colleague,

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and we negotiated, and we
collected the lunch counter

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and brought it back
to the Smithsonian,

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where it's now one
of the most important

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artifacts in that museum.

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DOMETI PONGO: Was there
push-back from Woolworth

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when you decided
that you were going

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to take that moment
and chronicle

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that piece of history?

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LONNIE BUNCH: When we talked
to Woolworth's headquarters

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in New York, they
were very concerned

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because they said,
that'll make us look bad,

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that we were part
of the segregation.

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And I argued, I said, no,
what will make you look

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good is that you changed, is
that like much of America,

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you changed based
on the pressure,

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and you did what's right.

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[MUSIC PLAYING]

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DOMETI PONGO: I ask that
question about push-back

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because, in the current time
we're in, in these movements,

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I see so many people, so many
white people in this country,

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reluctant to acknowledge our
racist past because they seem

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to think that it's an
admonishment on them,

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that it reflects their values.

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And I see frustration
among people

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in my generation in
this activist movement

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because they're
contending with that.

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What would you say to
folks in my generation

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who are frustrated with feeling
like we have to convince folks

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that our fight
for racial justice

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isn't a fight against you
and your personal identity,

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but rather an acknowledgment of
all of our collective identity

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as human beings?

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LONNIE BUNCH: Whether you think
it's the right thing or not,

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African-Americans have
always had to educate

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Americans, other Americans.

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And so in a way, that's
a burden we carry.

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And my notion is that what is
so powerful about the movement

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right now is that you do
see a diversity of people

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participating, which
tells me that maybe

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we can help people
understand this

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is not just a black moment.

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This is a quintessential
American moment.

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And that all Americans have a
responsibility of participating

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at this moment.

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In order to make
a country better,

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you've got to acknowledge the
fact that, as much as we talk

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about liberty and freedom as
part of America's heritage,

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so too is racial violence and
systematic discrimination.

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[MUSIC PLAYING]

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DOMETI PONGO: You know, when
we talk about movements,

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I think about momentum.

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And like the young people back
then at that Greensboro lunch

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counter, we're impatient.

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We want it now.

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And I think it's something
righteous about being

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impatient for justice.

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I think it makes sense.

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But also, I think we kind of
forget that those sit-ins,

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that that movement
lasted about six months,

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that the Montgomery bus
boycott was 380-plus days

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or something to that effect.

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How do you maintain
courage, the determination,

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the will to keep fighting,
to keep moving forward?

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LONNIE BUNCH: I think
what kept the momentum

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going was a belief--

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a belief that
change was possible,

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that there were enough little
victories where you could say,

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we desegregated Albany, Georgia.

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And those gave you a faith
that you can keep moving.

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But candidly, the other
thing that really helped

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was that you had a
variety of leaders,

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not just Martin Luther
King, but Fannie

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Lou Hamer and Ella Baker.

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And you had all these people
who basically would challenge

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those of us that were
younger to struggle

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but to also have patience.

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And one of the things I've
learned as a historian is one

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of the great strengths of the
African-American community is

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resiliency, is not giving
up for the long term.

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ELLA BAKER: We who believe
in freedom cannot rest.

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[MUSIC PLAYING]

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DOMETI PONGO: I've been
thinking deeply about what

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it takes to create a movement.

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Usually each movement
has a catalyst.

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In fact, a catalyst
literally means something

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that helps to promote change.

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And it's hard to predict
what a catalyst may be.

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Multiple people have been killed
at the hands of police violence

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but something about this
moment, the pandemic,

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and the murder of George
Floyd was the catalyst

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for today's movement.

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LONNIE BUNCH: I always say
to people, as a black man,

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I'm tired of mourning.

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I'm tired of talking about
black people who were shot, who

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were lynched, or now who need.

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And I realize that I think
that, for many people,

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they no longer see this
as a separate entity.

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They now say, this is me.

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And I think that sense
of personalization

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is what really makes
a catalyst work.

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And I think that the
murder of George Floyd

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was one of those catalysts
that people took personally

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and it forced people
to do something.

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And what they're doing is
something transformative.

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DOMETI PONGO: I remember
George Floyd's character was

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denigrated because they
brought up his criminal past

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and the same thing
with, well, why

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was Trayvon wearing the hoodie--
all of these different things.

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Do you think we'll get
past the point of having

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to be the perfect
Negro before folks

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take our movement seriously,
even within our own community?

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LONNIE BUNCH: I hope
so, but it's a burden.

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I think if you think of
Claudette Colvin, what you see

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is, here is the woman
who said, I will

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sit down because this is right.

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But the black
leadership said, here is

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a woman that is pregnant at 16.

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That's not the symbol we want.

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Whereas Rosa Parks,
more educated, stable,

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she was the symbol that
said the white community

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couldn't denigrate her.

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DOMETI PONGO: Even
within the movement,

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you have a lot of conversations
happening with leaders

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like Ella Baker, Diane
Nash that had to contend

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with sexism as well as racism.

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What are some of the
conversations that have been

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happening, even within
the movement, as we talk

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about misogynoir and how civil
rights activists of today

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have been making sure that
we address these issues

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of misogyny within the
Black Lives Matter movement,

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within civil rights movements,
and the erasure of the impact

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of LGBTQ folks and
women in movements

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across the civil
rights movement?

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LONNIE BUNCH: I think that
one of the most important

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things that's happening
now is that we've

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got inclusive leadership.

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And that the movements are not--

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in the '60s, women
were so central,

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but they were subordinate.

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And so what you now have are
women leading these movements,

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LGBT people being
central to this.

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So in some ways,
that inclusiveness

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means that it's forcing
the movement to be as fair

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as it demands America to be.

00:09:16.420 --> 00:09:18.420 align:middle line:84%
DOMETI PONGO: And even thinking
about the Black Lives Matter

00:09:18.420 --> 00:09:21.240 align:middle line:84%
hashtag, started by women, some
of whom I believe are queer,

00:09:21.240 --> 00:09:24.030 align:middle line:84%
and a lot of us haven't
heard the history

00:09:24.030 --> 00:09:25.680 align:middle line:84%
of Bayard Rustin
and his involvement

00:09:25.680 --> 00:09:26.865 align:middle line:90%
with the march on Washington.

00:09:26.865 --> 00:09:28.920 align:middle line:84%
Can you briefly let us
know about that history

00:09:28.920 --> 00:09:30.690 align:middle line:84%
so that we can build
this thread to know

00:09:30.690 --> 00:09:32.070 align:middle line:84%
that these conversations
were happening

00:09:32.070 --> 00:09:35.770 align:middle line:84%
about the LGBTQ community within
the black community aren't new?

00:09:35.770 --> 00:09:37.830 align:middle line:84%
LONNIE BUNCH: Bayard
Rustin, who really

00:09:37.830 --> 00:09:41.670 align:middle line:84%
was the organizational genius
that shaped so much of Martin

00:09:41.670 --> 00:09:43.650 align:middle line:84%
Luther King's
activities, and he was

00:09:43.650 --> 00:09:47.160 align:middle line:84%
crucial in organizing,
planning, and implementing

00:09:47.160 --> 00:09:48.750 align:middle line:90%
the march on Washington.

00:09:48.750 --> 00:09:53.370 align:middle line:84%
And yet, they tried to keep him
under wraps because they were

00:09:53.370 --> 00:09:57.240 align:middle line:84%
afraid that the FBI would
use his homosexuality

00:09:57.240 --> 00:10:00.690 align:middle line:84%
as a way to say, see, this
is a communist-led movement.

00:10:00.690 --> 00:10:03.330 align:middle line:84%
It's a movement that doesn't
have American values.

00:10:03.330 --> 00:10:06.180 align:middle line:84%
And so instead of being
courageous enough to say,

00:10:06.180 --> 00:10:10.980 align:middle line:84%
he is who he is, there was
this desire to keep him back,

00:10:10.980 --> 00:10:13.260 align:middle line:84%
so therefore the
movement wouldn't suffer.

00:10:13.260 --> 00:10:15.030 align:middle line:84%
One of the things that's
most important to me

00:10:15.030 --> 00:10:18.510 align:middle line:84%
is, for African-Americans
to lead this,

00:10:18.510 --> 00:10:20.820 align:middle line:84%
then they've got to
basically lead and say,

00:10:20.820 --> 00:10:24.480 align:middle line:84%
this is the way we expect
all people to be treated.

00:10:24.480 --> 00:10:26.755 align:middle line:84%
And that means we've got to
start with ourselves first.

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DOMETI PONGO: Yeah, yeah.

00:10:28.560 --> 00:10:29.640 align:middle line:90%
Very beautifully said.

00:10:29.640 --> 00:10:33.120 align:middle line:90%
[MUSIC PLAYING]

00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:35.220 align:middle line:84%
Let's talk about the resources
at the Smithsonian that

00:10:35.220 --> 00:10:37.530 align:middle line:84%
are derived from history
but can serve as a guide

00:10:37.530 --> 00:10:38.670 align:middle line:90%
for how we can move forward.

00:10:38.670 --> 00:10:40.350 align:middle line:84%
LONNIE BUNCH: What
is important is

00:10:40.350 --> 00:10:43.200 align:middle line:84%
that I think places
like the Smithsonian

00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:45.860 align:middle line:84%
have to play a role to
demonstrate that they're

00:10:45.860 --> 00:10:50.370 align:middle line:84%
a value and that they are as
much about today and tomorrow

00:10:50.370 --> 00:10:51.810 align:middle line:90%
as they are about yesterday.

00:10:51.810 --> 00:10:54.870 align:middle line:84%
We created a major initiative
called Race Community

00:10:54.870 --> 00:10:58.170 align:middle line:84%
and Our Shared Future,
which will allow us to put

00:10:58.170 --> 00:11:02.250 align:middle line:84%
the resources in to create the
kind of virtual conversations,

00:11:02.250 --> 00:11:05.010 align:middle line:84%
to do the collecting so
that this moment is not lost

00:11:05.010 --> 00:11:08.760 align:middle line:84%
in history, so that, in
essence, for me museums

00:11:08.760 --> 00:11:13.380 align:middle line:84%
like the Smithsonian have
to be part of the struggle

00:11:13.380 --> 00:11:14.790 align:middle line:90%
to change a country.

00:11:14.790 --> 00:11:17.940 align:middle line:84%
Otherwise, there are
places about nostalgia.

00:11:17.940 --> 00:11:20.100 align:middle line:84%
And nostalgia is
wonderful, but nostalgia

00:11:20.100 --> 00:11:21.390 align:middle line:90%
never changes a thing.

00:11:21.390 --> 00:11:24.440 align:middle line:90%
[MUSIC PLAYING]

00:11:24.440 --> 00:11:34.000 align:middle line:90%