WEBVTT 0 00:00:00.009 --> 00:00:02.269 The state of crypto is presented by Tron 1 00:00:02.279 --> 00:00:05.550 connecting the world to the power of Cryptocurrency. 2 00:00:08.619 --> 00:00:11.569 Good morning and welcome back to first mover. 3 00:00:11.579 --> 00:00:14.970 Week three of the Sam Bateman freed criminal trial begins today. 4 00:00:14.979 --> 00:00:17.209 This week we're expecting to hear from FTX, co 5 00:00:17.319 --> 00:00:19.649 founder and director of engineering, Nishad Singh 6 00:00:19.750 --> 00:00:23.620 Singh pleaded guilty to multiple charges related to fraud late last year. 7 00:00:23.629 --> 00:00:25.790 Joining us now to discuss is criminal defense 8 00:00:25.799 --> 00:00:27.889 attorney at Tully and Vice Joseph Tully. 9 00:00:27.899 --> 00:00:29.270 Welcome to the show, Joseph. 10 00:00:30.030 --> 00:00:31.649 Thank you so much for having me. 11 00:00:32.269 --> 00:00:33.758 Thanks for being here. All right, 12 00:00:33.868 --> 00:00:38.409 we are heading into week three. What do you think of the defense's strategy so far? 13 00:00:39.599 --> 00:00:42.189 Well, I think it's become apparent that the, 14 00:00:42.200 --> 00:00:48.389 what the strategy is and if I were to sum that up in a very kind of catch phrase, 15 00:00:48.599 --> 00:00:54.090 it would be SPF is an idiot. That's where they're going. That's what their goal is. 16 00:00:54.110 --> 00:00:58.340 Um But I don't think things are going too well for the defense in this case. 17 00:00:59.759 --> 00:01:05.819 So we, you know, Caroline Ellison had a, uh, you know, she was on the stand last week 18 00:01:06.029 --> 00:01:11.500 and it seemed that after several hours that they couldn't quite pin any 19 00:01:11.510 --> 00:01:15.629 of the responsibility or most of the responsibility on her seems to, 20 00:01:15.639 --> 00:01:16.260 she 21 00:01:17.059 --> 00:01:19.220 seems to have deflected a lot of it. 22 00:01:19.470 --> 00:01:19.790 Um, 23 00:01:19.800 --> 00:01:24.980 is that really the case or do you think that the defense has made any effort 24 00:01:24.989 --> 00:01:29.339 has done anything to kind of at least put some of the blame onto her? 25 00:01:30.180 --> 00:01:30.199 I 26 00:01:30.400 --> 00:01:34.500 think they, they definitely attempted to do that. 27 00:01:34.610 --> 00:01:38.879 But all the pundits that are covering this and all the media 28 00:01:38.989 --> 00:01:44.839 personnel who have covered this have all kind of characterized the defense as, 29 00:01:44.849 --> 00:01:46.080 you know, taking a swing and 30 00:01:46.199 --> 00:01:46.209 a 31 00:01:46.319 --> 00:01:51.559 yes and that they are trying to do, they are trying to build a defense. 32 00:01:51.569 --> 00:01:52.480 But number one, 33 00:01:52.489 --> 00:01:56.379 they're getting shut down by the judge on a lot of key important things. 34 00:01:56.389 --> 00:01:59.470 And number two is they're getting shut down by the witnesses. 35 00:01:59.639 --> 00:02:02.360 So I think they were attempting to, 36 00:02:03.550 --> 00:02:08.149 you know, build the defense of, you know, the SPF is an idiot defense. 37 00:02:08.160 --> 00:02:14.479 I think the one thing that they successfully did through Ellison was to establish 38 00:02:14.490 --> 00:02:19.309 that SPF was absent a lot that he was kind of an absentee guy. 39 00:02:19.320 --> 00:02:19.660 But 40 00:02:19.839 --> 00:02:22.559 I don't think that that will matter to the jury. 41 00:02:22.570 --> 00:02:28.929 I think that will matter matter to the jury is that when he was there, what did he do? 42 00:02:29.619 --> 00:02:34.860 The funds that went from FTX to Alameda who directed 43 00:02:34.869 --> 00:02:37.699 that and all the testimony is now that it's on, 44 00:02:37.710 --> 00:02:41.570 it's right at the hands of, of FSBF who was doing that 45 00:02:43.369 --> 00:02:43.660 you know, 46 00:02:43.669 --> 00:02:46.119 folks that were in the courtroom last week 47 00:02:46.130 --> 00:02:48.539 were kind of disappointed with the cross examination 48 00:02:48.639 --> 00:02:52.509 of Ellison. They said that the cross examination was lackluster. 49 00:02:52.520 --> 00:02:55.600 It was meandering. You couldn't really tell where it was going. 50 00:02:55.729 --> 00:02:57.979 Do you think that's part of a bigger strategy or do you 51 00:02:57.990 --> 00:03:00.830 think that the defense was just feeling defeated in that moment? 52 00:03:00.839 --> 00:03:02.600 It really wasn't what we were expecting from 53 00:03:02.610 --> 00:03:05.179 the cross examination of this huge witness. 54 00:03:05.820 --> 00:03:10.160 Sure. So cross examination is very, very tricky 55 00:03:10.369 --> 00:03:11.470 and it's, uh, 56 00:03:11.979 --> 00:03:15.279 it's completely different than what you see on TV. 57 00:03:15.369 --> 00:03:20.839 Normally speaking, it's very touch and go. It's very guarded. 58 00:03:20.850 --> 00:03:24.729 If you have a hostile witness, somebody who is a cooperator, 59 00:03:24.740 --> 00:03:29.779 someone whose future hinges on, you know, pointing the finger at your client, 60 00:03:29.889 --> 00:03:33.279 you, they're not going to be your friend. So you're going to have to 61 00:03:33.824 --> 00:03:39.934 out of them key facts that will be helpful to you. You get what you need and you move on 62 00:03:40.744 --> 00:03:45.845 and that is, it's a tricky thing to do, but a competent 63 00:03:46.104 --> 00:03:47.345 defense attorney 64 00:03:47.604 --> 00:03:53.044 can usually do that. So it is disappointing to hear that, 65 00:03:53.475 --> 00:03:58.804 you know, that the cross examination is described as meandering, as lackluster as, 66 00:03:58.815 --> 00:04:01.445 you know, taking a swing and getting Amiss. 67 00:04:02.320 --> 00:04:06.660 So let's say, uh, Saman Manfried, decide to hire you as his attorney. 68 00:04:06.669 --> 00:04:08.460 How would you defend him right now? 69 00:04:08.789 --> 00:04:12.339 Uh, going forward, given everything that's just happened, 70 00:04:12.350 --> 00:04:15.020 what would you suggest this, his defense do? 71 00:04:16.548 --> 00:04:20.769 So, I, I don't think that you can win everything. I think you have to 72 00:04:20.910 --> 00:04:24.140 um cut, cut your losses here, so to speak. So 73 00:04:24.299 --> 00:04:28.429 the government did overcharge this case to some degree. 74 00:04:28.480 --> 00:04:35.230 Um They can get him for, you know, the, the some of the fraud stuff but conspiracy. 75 00:04:35.380 --> 00:04:35.890 Um 76 00:04:36.059 --> 00:04:40.170 You literally have to prove that someone said I know this is wrong. 77 00:04:40.179 --> 00:04:43.350 I know this breaks the law. I want to do it anyway. 78 00:04:43.459 --> 00:04:44.559 And um, 79 00:04:45.059 --> 00:04:47.190 and I would get the intent on that. 80 00:04:47.309 --> 00:04:49.239 I would also um come 81 00:04:49.619 --> 00:04:52.000 a after my cross examination, 82 00:04:52.239 --> 00:04:56.730 people would be focused on, listen, you were doing the same thing, you know, 83 00:04:56.739 --> 00:04:58.100 to all the witnesses 84 00:04:58.230 --> 00:04:59.059 and 85 00:04:59.179 --> 00:05:02.510 you are trying to minimize your part in this and point 86 00:05:02.519 --> 00:05:05.420 the finger at SPF because the government has set you up. 87 00:05:05.429 --> 00:05:08.179 If you are successful, you don't get in trouble 88 00:05:08.750 --> 00:05:13.299 and if you don't do a good job, if, if the government can't convict SPF, 89 00:05:13.309 --> 00:05:15.700 then it's more weight on your shoulders. 90 00:05:15.709 --> 00:05:18.260 So, you know, it's basically the old, 91 00:05:18.269 --> 00:05:21.529 the old snitch model in terms of cross examination, 92 00:05:21.640 --> 00:05:25.640 you point out to the jury that basically these people are getting 93 00:05:25.649 --> 00:05:30.070 paid to make things look as bad as possible for my client. 94 00:05:30.200 --> 00:05:33.570 And again, you know, not paid in terms of money, but in paid, 95 00:05:33.690 --> 00:05:36.239 in terms of rewarded, 96 00:05:36.250 --> 00:05:40.160 in terms of a sentence that they're possibly looking at of X amount 97 00:05:40.170 --> 00:05:44.929 of years to a greatly reduced number of Y amount of years, 98 00:05:45.399 --> 00:05:49.209 Joseph, that's what you would do, but I want to get you to look into your Crystal Ball. 99 00:05:49.220 --> 00:05:50.779 Now, I recently read your article, 100 00:05:50.790 --> 00:05:54.230 Joseph Tully's legal Crystal Ball on the Trump indictment. 101 00:05:54.269 --> 00:05:58.130 And so do you mind unpacking what you think might happen 102 00:05:58.399 --> 00:06:00.329 in SB F's trial? What do 103 00:06:00.459 --> 00:06:02.529 you, what do you think we're going to see happen? 104 00:06:04.730 --> 00:06:10.290 Um, I think we, we are going to see a different tone in the defense. 105 00:06:10.380 --> 00:06:17.109 I think that, um, I, I, if these attorneys are really putting, 106 00:06:17.119 --> 00:06:18.890 they're all into this case, 107 00:06:19.049 --> 00:06:24.170 um, then what you might see is, uh, two ships in the night, uh, kind of defense. 108 00:06:24.179 --> 00:06:28.769 So where the prosecution is going one way and the defense is kind of 109 00:06:28.877 --> 00:06:30.596 going to let them do their thing 110 00:06:30.867 --> 00:06:33.096 and not interfere with it too much. 111 00:06:33.307 --> 00:06:37.897 And then the defense will be another ship in the night. Never touching that. 112 00:06:37.907 --> 00:06:41.316 A completely different tone, a completely different rhythm 113 00:06:41.506 --> 00:06:42.096 and 114 00:06:42.296 --> 00:06:45.897 like, ok, that's the prosecution's case. This is our case. 115 00:06:45.986 --> 00:06:49.016 They're going to put on expert witnesses. 116 00:06:49.087 --> 00:06:55.283 They're going to, to go with the, the SVF is in the, is an idiot kind of defense. 117 00:06:55.294 --> 00:07:03.694 They are going to talk about the medications that he was on any diagnoses. 118 00:07:03.704 --> 00:07:05.734 He might have a DH 119 00:07:05.843 --> 00:07:08.194 D, you know, bipolar 120 00:07:09.153 --> 00:07:14.403 and they're going to try to cut against that criminal intent towards a conspiracy. 121 00:07:14.414 --> 00:07:17.544 Again, not necessarily for what you do, but 122 00:07:17.691 --> 00:07:21.071 thinking about what you're going to do, you know, I know this is illegal, 123 00:07:21.080 --> 00:07:22.430 but I want to do it anyway. 124 00:07:22.640 --> 00:07:23.161 Um, 125 00:07:23.480 --> 00:07:27.540 so I think they'll, they'll, they will have a different tone. 126 00:07:27.550 --> 00:07:30.390 I'm hoping for the defense because I would like to see something. 127 00:07:30.401 --> 00:07:32.610 I do want to see vigorous competent 128 00:07:32.751 --> 00:07:36.890 representation and I think these are some of the best lawyers you could buy. 129 00:07:36.901 --> 00:07:41.230 Obviously, this is a big case. He wouldn't have just hired anybody. So, 130 00:07:41.471 --> 00:07:41.980 um, 131 00:07:42.559 --> 00:07:46.040 I think we'll see sort of just, just a different tone, 132 00:07:46.049 --> 00:07:50.410 tonal shift like water off a duck's back is the prosecution's case. 133 00:07:50.420 --> 00:07:51.739 And now we're going to do our thing. 134 00:07:52.519 --> 00:07:57.769 So do you think that them saying Sam needs access to his admiral to be more focused, 135 00:07:57.779 --> 00:08:01.640 is, is more part of their strategy than him actually needing access to that? 136 00:08:03.070 --> 00:08:08.880 Oh, I think that uh are you talking about when he did that uh in, in a hearing? 137 00:08:08.890 --> 00:08:11.559 And they made a big deal? They took a break. What 138 00:08:13.510 --> 00:08:15.100 most recently, Joseph, um, 139 00:08:15.350 --> 00:08:19.250 the defense has told the judge that he needs his Adderall to be more focused 140 00:08:19.260 --> 00:08:22.010 in court and also to take the stand if he's going to take the stand. 141 00:08:22.899 --> 00:08:23.679 Yes. Yes. 142 00:08:23.690 --> 00:08:29.000 So they are setting up a defense of they will have, even if it's not a defense here, 143 00:08:29.010 --> 00:08:30.880 it will play a part in sentencing 144 00:08:31.010 --> 00:08:31.630 that 145 00:08:31.829 --> 00:08:33.580 Adderall has these side effects. 146 00:08:33.840 --> 00:08:34.320 Um 147 00:08:34.530 --> 00:08:39.479 And that while it does keep you focused, there are these extreme side effects 148 00:08:39.710 --> 00:08:45.580 that can possibly explain why he was impulsive. Why he made these 149 00:08:45.794 --> 00:08:50.895 risky decisions. Those are all kind of side effects of these, of these drugs. 150 00:08:50.905 --> 00:08:54.724 So I think they're laying it on a little thick and 151 00:08:54.734 --> 00:08:56.695 I think that they've done it if you go back, 152 00:08:56.705 --> 00:09:00.645 not only as an instance that you pointed out that I wasn't aware of, 153 00:09:00.655 --> 00:09:04.025 but previous instances where they really make a big deal, 154 00:09:04.034 --> 00:09:07.854 they'll pause a hearing and take a break and put it on the record. 155 00:09:09.114 --> 00:09:15.174 To me. That that's a strategy of we're going to kind of blame the meds for some of this 156 00:09:17.599 --> 00:09:18.140 Joseph. 157 00:09:18.150 --> 00:09:21.349 Thanks so much for your insight there and thanks so much for joining us this morning. 158 00:09:22.109 --> 00:09:23.859 Thank you, take care and have a great day. 159 00:09:24.750 --> 00:09:25.340 You too. 160 00:09:26.169 --> 00:09:29.609 That was criminal defense attorney at Tully and Vice Joseph Tully.