WEBVTT 00:00:00.300 --> 00:00:04.600 Thought that my heart, you know, what I did was designed 00:00:04.600 --> 00:00:06.700 to make white people do the right thing. 00:00:06.700 --> 00:00:14.800 I thought he writes Rolling Stone and they're spoken Tallahassee 00:00:14.800 --> 00:00:17.200 Coates the best-selling author of between the world and me, 00:00:17.200 --> 00:00:20.700 which is now film from HBO check out this conversation 00:00:20.700 --> 00:00:23.700 before you see it and hope you enjoy it. 00:00:23.700 --> 00:00:25.600 Like I said man is great to see you. 00:00:25.600 --> 00:00:33.900 It's been a minute you about how this all came together 00:00:33.900 --> 00:00:41.900 and also about the director kamela Forbes over 25 years and she's 00:00:41.900 --> 00:00:42.400 been friends. 00:00:44.800 --> 00:00:49.200 So it's MD connections here and not just personal connections. 00:00:49.200 --> 00:00:50.200 You know how I met Camille. 00:00:50.200 --> 00:00:54.600 I said medical for my wife Camilla and how do you know in the 00:00:54.600 --> 00:01:04.000 space working? And so I guess somewhere in 2017 or so about 00:01:04.000 --> 00:01:07.100 the possibility of doing some traumatic adaptation of between the 00:01:07.100 --> 00:01:10.500 world and Me by various people to do that, 00:01:10.500 --> 00:01:16.300 but you know, I don't really trust anybody till I knew you know 00:01:16.300 --> 00:01:22.400 how she worked and you know that she was serious and so it really 00:01:22.400 --> 00:01:26.500 it just felt like a natural and that I had no idea what she 00:01:26.500 --> 00:01:27.100 was going to do. 00:01:27.100 --> 00:01:28.700 I wouldn't have you was up to me. 00:01:28.700 --> 00:01:31.600 I would have no notion of how you know somebody to stage. 00:01:32.400 --> 00:01:33.500 Between the world and me. 00:01:33.500 --> 00:01:34.400 I don't know how you do that. 00:01:34.400 --> 00:01:39.100 But didn't she didn't she did and very successful are beautifully and 00:01:39.100 --> 00:01:46.100 moving Lee and so, you know this I guess spring or summer. 00:01:47.100 --> 00:01:50.500 Fast forward a bit in the midst of covet in everything 00:01:50.500 --> 00:01:55.200 a group of us most of us with you know attended Howard we convene 00:01:55.200 --> 00:02:02.000 on Saturdays for game night of Camilla and Susan kelechi 00:02:02.000 --> 00:02:04.900 Watson. So when are you just talkin, 00:02:04.900 --> 00:02:13.800 you know, and we should we should do a read this, 00:02:13.800 --> 00:02:18.900 you know, we thought we just assumed but we talked about it. 00:02:21.700 --> 00:02:23.800 You know and by the time I landed HBO, 00:02:23.800 --> 00:02:26.900 you know, it was pretty much out of my hands. 00:02:26.900 --> 00:02:32.000 You know that that is Camillus, you know baby. 00:02:32.000 --> 00:02:34.500 Just seeing that she did a marvelous job. 00:02:34.500 --> 00:02:36.500 Yeah, I agree with that man. 00:02:36.500 --> 00:02:40.600 I was incredibly moved watching it and I think that just the 00:02:40.600 --> 00:02:46.600 way it starts also just be with you Joe Morton coming just deal 00:02:46.600 --> 00:02:50.600 with this emotional reading and I would outweigh justed to know 00:02:50.600 --> 00:02:56.300 how you feel and they buy your son feels also hearing that letter 00:02:56.300 --> 00:02:59.300 being read. Now five years later obvious after the publication 00:02:59.300 --> 00:03:05.100 in hearing those words in this context in this America and I just 00:03:05.100 --> 00:03:08.400 want to know how that resonates for you because you wrote those 00:03:08.400 --> 00:03:12.800 words and obviously resonance differently for you than it does 00:03:12.800 --> 00:03:14.300 for us having read them. 00:03:21.700 --> 00:03:23.700 Struck me was two days first. 00:03:23.700 --> 00:03:27.600 I was struck by how to project became bigger than what could 00:03:27.600 --> 00:03:29.100 possibly be cocky little book. 00:03:29.100 --> 00:03:33.100 You know how I just became so much larger by hearing all of the 00:03:33.100 --> 00:03:36.800 universe voice has you know from Jomo and Angela Davis Courtney 00:03:36.800 --> 00:03:46.400 B Vance has different way. 00:03:46.400 --> 00:03:51.200 So that guy was fascinating to see the second thing is the book 00:03:51.200 --> 00:03:56.400 is appropriate because it was writing about iron laws that are 00:03:56.400 --> 00:03:59.700 written into the foundation of woven into the foundation 00:03:59.700 --> 00:04:00.400 of America. 00:04:01.300 --> 00:04:03.700 and absent some deep 00:04:04.800 --> 00:04:09.300 Searching with some deep surgery or you know something 00:04:09.300 --> 00:04:11.600 Between Worlds we will remain appropriate. 00:04:11.600 --> 00:04:14.900 You know, it's not a particularly great book, 00:04:14.900 --> 00:04:19.100 you know, it's wise to do with American and it does you know, 00:04:19.100 --> 00:04:23.700 what the book the math is the mask. 00:04:24.400 --> 00:04:27.100 And the master 2015 has not changed. 00:04:28.600 --> 00:04:33.200 Yeah, unfortunately, this has been nothing evolutions 00:04:33.200 --> 00:04:35.400 of I think you know whiteness. 00:04:35.400 --> 00:04:36.500 I think it's evolved. 00:04:36.500 --> 00:04:40.500 I think how we perceive, you know, 00:04:40.500 --> 00:04:46.900 the difference of a white supremacy in those things have taken 00:04:46.900 --> 00:04:49.500 hold his various sectors of America. 00:04:49.500 --> 00:04:54.100 Those things have evolved how you know, 00:04:54.100 --> 00:04:57.500 obviously York. Your writing is taking different forms during 00:04:57.500 --> 00:05:00.500 these last four years, you know, you got the water dancer 00:05:00.500 --> 00:05:04.000 out and I know that you're not working on the screenplay 00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:07.800 for the film tell me a little bit about how your writing 00:05:07.800 --> 00:05:10.900 process is evolved during these four years in your perception, 00:05:10.900 --> 00:05:14.000 perhaps of of America in school. 00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:17.800 I think it has too much. 00:05:17.800 --> 00:05:23.000 You don't like yo pay the back is out now, 00:05:23.000 --> 00:05:26.400 but that book in terms of its Inception. 00:05:26.400 --> 00:05:29.900 He's older than between the world and me is older than the case 00:05:29.900 --> 00:05:30.000 for reparations. 00:05:35.200 --> 00:05:37.700 It just took a long time to get done. 00:05:37.700 --> 00:05:41.700 You know, you took a long time to get things figured out how 00:05:41.700 --> 00:05:42.100 to do it. 00:05:42.100 --> 00:05:44.900 Right? So what is it the difference between when something 00:05:44.900 --> 00:05:48.200 is conceived and when it's actually seen you know, 00:05:48.200 --> 00:05:50.700 so that hasn't changed too much. 00:05:52.000 --> 00:05:54.400 And I don't think whiteness in America has changed too much. 00:05:56.700 --> 00:05:59.600 You know, I think it's kind of weird reason why I had to retreat 00:05:59.600 --> 00:06:03.200 away from your giving my daily or weekly tape, 00:06:03.200 --> 00:06:05.700 you know being on Twitter of being alone articles that someone 00:06:05.700 --> 00:06:07.700 uses when I was like what what do you want me to say, 00:06:07.700 --> 00:06:12.300 you know, I can't reiterate the same thing over and over again 00:06:12.300 --> 00:06:18.900 that challenge right now what I do when I see what you're 00:06:18.900 --> 00:06:24.600 doing, I think there is a role for seeing what you did how the 00:06:24.600 --> 00:06:26.000 book has evolved. 00:06:26.000 --> 00:06:28.600 I think that's really interesting to see how it's evolved 00:06:28.600 --> 00:06:32.100 from print form to feed her to now television. 00:06:32.100 --> 00:06:36.400 I think seeing how we can evolve our art forms in a different 00:06:36.400 --> 00:06:40.200 way. I think that that's opening up new avenues. 00:06:40.200 --> 00:06:43.500 I think Forest that maybe we had the thought of can we tell 00:06:43.500 --> 00:06:49.200 me a little bit about how these Horizons what these Horizons 00:06:49.200 --> 00:06:52.000 opening up his taught you as an artist. 00:06:53.300 --> 00:06:55.600 Sometimes you can see things that you can't. 00:06:56.600 --> 00:06:58.500 You know and you got to be open it up, 00:06:58.500 --> 00:07:01.000 you know, I'm pretty clear. 00:07:03.200 --> 00:07:08.200 My training is in using words to paint a picture, 00:07:08.200 --> 00:07:09.900 but my training is not in. 00:07:11.700 --> 00:07:16.800 Using visual art on matching Visual Arts words using your music 00:07:16.800 --> 00:07:18.900 to express more than with it. 00:07:18.900 --> 00:07:20.400 That's not what I would have done. 00:07:20.400 --> 00:07:24.600 And so the only way this actually expand it beyond what would 00:07:24.600 --> 00:07:31.100 I do is I'm even willing to really hand over control to somebody 00:07:31.100 --> 00:07:33.900 else and you'll forgot to have you got somebody when you love 00:07:33.900 --> 00:07:36.400 me you trust as far as I'm concerned at least I do, 00:07:36.400 --> 00:07:40.200 you know that that was that was very much Essential one of the 00:07:40.200 --> 00:07:42.000 things obviously we see in the film. 00:07:42.000 --> 00:07:46.200 We see you Chadwick boseman's speech at Howard during the commencement 00:07:46.200 --> 00:07:50.300 and the film is dedicated partly to him a little bit about 00:07:50.300 --> 00:07:54.000 your relationship with him know that you know, 00:07:54.000 --> 00:07:58.400 you are cross pastor and you work on Black Panther and I was 00:07:58.400 --> 00:08:01.400 not sure what your relationship may have been during your day's 00:08:01.400 --> 00:08:03.400 hour, but you can tell me a little bit about that. 00:08:06.400 --> 00:08:09.000 Chad really really close friend 00:08:16.700 --> 00:08:20.600 He was trying to keep the college of fine arts and Howard University 00:08:20.600 --> 00:08:22.600 with your that point with the only free-standing 00:08:22.600 --> 00:08:26.200 call to find out there any HBCU are you trying to keep it from 00:08:26.200 --> 00:08:31.300 closing and he was protesting along with Camilla a believe it 00:08:31.300 --> 00:08:31.500 or not? 00:08:31.500 --> 00:08:33.800 I that protesting I was a journalist at the student newspaper 00:08:33.800 --> 00:08:40.600 at the time and I was covering this protest and what I was saying is 00:08:40.600 --> 00:08:45.300 the same level of Integrity that he had as an octopus 00:08:45.300 --> 00:08:49.300 was the same level of a time you set up to tell Betty brought 00:08:49.300 --> 00:08:54.800 to the arc, but I eventually so I can practice at Camilla's 00:08:54.800 --> 00:08:56.900 earliest play Early student play at Howard University 00:08:56.900 --> 00:09:00.400 chat know how to have a starring role in you know, 00:09:00.400 --> 00:09:05.200 I wrote the program and so 00:09:06.500 --> 00:09:10.100 This goes backwards and I didn't tell you that he brought 00:09:10.100 --> 00:09:13.200 to his art was exactly the same Integrity. 00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:16.300 You're the one I saw in the actors that he brought two rolls 00:09:16.300 --> 00:09:19.300 when he was picked for t'challa is it just a thought you was 00:09:19.300 --> 00:09:23.900 no no better choice, you know how he had an inability to emit 00:09:23.900 --> 00:09:31.600 a kind of nobility kind of positive describe it down. 00:09:31.600 --> 00:09:36.600 When was the reason why he was chosen for so many bigger than 00:09:36.600 --> 00:09:44.000 life. Phil see his family. 00:09:45.200 --> 00:09:49.500 I feel for you know, his wife Simone feel for his production 00:09:49.500 --> 00:09:52.400 party and Gregory friend, you know Logan calls, 00:09:52.400 --> 00:09:59.300 but I feel for you guys because the world never really got to 00:09:59.300 --> 00:10:00.900 see was the chat. 00:10:00.900 --> 00:10:01.900 I knew it Howard. 00:10:01.900 --> 00:10:06.800 Yeah, he was an actor what his interest was in writing and directing 00:10:06.800 --> 00:10:17.500 screenplay call Dee Badger and deep Azure was based on the death 00:10:17.500 --> 00:10:20.700 of Prince Charles, which is the origin of between the world. 00:10:20.700 --> 00:10:24.200 And I don't know which I would have done with that ultimately 00:10:24.200 --> 00:10:29.100 something brilliant. I'm sure you know, and I am sad that the 00:10:29.100 --> 00:10:32.200 world didn't get to see that because.. 00:10:32.200 --> 00:10:33.600 Was that is cool man. 00:10:33.600 --> 00:10:38.100 So it's a huge loss or lost in time to when everybody saw it 00:10:38.100 --> 00:10:40.200 when I have I can imagine based on what they saw. 00:10:40.200 --> 00:10:44.000 What is also a lost in terms of what people Beyond, 00:10:44.000 --> 00:10:44.700 you know a few of us. 00:10:45.500 --> 00:10:48.500 You know who knew him, you know in a few of us who got 00:10:48.500 --> 00:10:50.300 that, you know seeing me work one of my testicle, 00:10:50.300 --> 00:10:52.900 you know before all of this, you know, 00:10:52.900 --> 00:10:54.300 most people just never got to see. 00:10:56.000 --> 00:11:01.000 You mentioned Prince Jones course he forms this emotional 00:11:01.000 --> 00:11:04.300 chord not just the documentary butter in in the book as well. 00:11:04.300 --> 00:11:09.100 Tell me a little bit about him and his case for those who may 00:11:09.100 --> 00:11:12.500 be haven't read the book and maybe need to know a little bit 00:11:12.500 --> 00:11:13.600 more about what happened to him. 00:11:13.600 --> 00:11:26.100 You know handsome intelligent is a shock shot good-hearted. 00:11:26.100 --> 00:11:37.200 Dude. Prince was killed in in mm born near yards with his fiance 00:11:37.200 --> 00:11:39.200 and his daughter. 00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:44.700 He was out of Prince George's County Maryland, 00:11:44.700 --> 00:11:49.200 no relation through the District of Columbia in to Virginia 00:11:49.200 --> 00:11:53.100 where he was shot down by by police officer receive so much 00:11:53.100 --> 00:11:54.400 as a threat to life. 00:11:55.900 --> 00:12:01.400 What was most horny for me at the time and remain Sonic is the 00:12:01.400 --> 00:12:04.900 cops that were pursuing Prince where it where were undercover 00:12:04.900 --> 00:12:06.200 as drug dealers themselves. 00:12:06.200 --> 00:12:07.900 It was signing some of the case at night. 00:12:09.500 --> 00:12:16.300 I shudder to think what I would do if I were headed to the 00:12:16.300 --> 00:12:21.300 home of my partner and my newborn child on my young child. 00:12:22.100 --> 00:12:25.600 And I thought somebody that was dressed to look like a drug 00:12:25.600 --> 00:12:31.000 dealer was following Prince paid, you know with his life being 00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:35.200 human and responding and we're human beings tend to respond. 00:12:36.100 --> 00:12:41.300 Can I not that has always been a deep deep personal sadness 00:12:41.300 --> 00:12:41.600 for me. 00:12:42.600 --> 00:12:48.100 Yeah, the understandable human reaction is that's that's the 00:12:48.100 --> 00:12:50.300 thing is that people always tell folks. 00:12:50.300 --> 00:12:53.600 Okay. Well just obey the police officer and everything 00:12:53.600 --> 00:12:53.900 will be fine. 00:12:53.900 --> 00:12:56.600 And it's not it's never that simple. 00:13:01.700 --> 00:13:07.000 Why do my Michigan with guns and yelling the face of police 00:13:07.000 --> 00:13:07.400 officer? 00:13:08.200 --> 00:13:12.600 Nobody shoots now, you know, why do people curse out police 00:13:12.600 --> 00:13:16.600 officers to get upset about your ticket that they got so I may 00:13:16.600 --> 00:13:20.300 need the codes that they charge me to put on us we can close 00:13:20.300 --> 00:13:24.500 it. No human being could obey and we know that because they 00:13:24.500 --> 00:13:24.800 don't know. 00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:29.900 You know, the difference is bpay for you play with our lives 00:13:29.900 --> 00:13:35.900 and occasionally they do to us and that's where that the upper 00:13:35.900 --> 00:13:38.600 west side. And it don't really just hit home for me when I first 00:13:38.600 --> 00:13:42.100 read it and it really in the film. 00:13:42.100 --> 00:13:46.500 It really is just strikes a note because it just the way it's 00:13:46.500 --> 00:13:47.500 red way. It's presented. 00:13:47.500 --> 00:13:51.900 I really think it's very very powerful where you're going to the 00:13:51.900 --> 00:13:56.700 upper west side and your son is pushed by a white woman and there's 00:13:56.700 --> 00:14:01.600 an episode where your anger almost gets you arrested. 00:14:01.600 --> 00:14:07.300 So she will see that story. 00:14:07.300 --> 00:14:11.200 But the point is there's this is awareness throughout 00:14:11.200 --> 00:14:14.000 the book and throughout the letter that you write to your son 00:14:14.000 --> 00:14:15.100 that 00:14:16.400 --> 00:14:19.600 You know, we is black folks live in this state of threat. 00:14:19.600 --> 00:14:23.900 And for a lot of white folks who read this book for the first 00:14:23.900 --> 00:14:28.200 time that's news and that was the first time that they may be 00:14:28.200 --> 00:14:29.300 a learned about it. 00:14:29.300 --> 00:14:35.500 Maybe that acutely that that personal and how I guess in The 00:14:35.500 --> 00:14:36.400 Last 5 Years. 00:14:36.400 --> 00:14:43.400 Have you grappled with the to the book being handled in the public 00:14:43.400 --> 00:14:45.300 sphere in the public Consciousness in that manner? 00:14:45.300 --> 00:14:55.500 I don't know how you know, I let people have their own experience 00:14:55.500 --> 00:14:56.400 of between the world and me. 00:14:56.400 --> 00:15:05.100 I think you know what web between the world is I have my time 00:15:05.100 --> 00:15:05.600 with the book. 00:15:06.400 --> 00:15:08.600 So people take from it with the you know, 00:15:08.600 --> 00:15:11.400 what they say from hopefully some amount of the Enlightenment 00:15:11.400 --> 00:15:17.100 and you know feeling and I think that there is also this importance 00:15:17.100 --> 00:15:22.400 that thing when we as Riders bring this awareness that we do live in 00:15:22.400 --> 00:15:23.200 this state of threat. 00:15:23.200 --> 00:15:31.500 Is it important to that which do you feel like you feel like 00:15:31.500 --> 00:15:34.800 it's still a good thing to continually remind people of that 00:15:34.800 --> 00:15:40.300 wears you said before is it just gives it redundant after a while 00:15:40.300 --> 00:15:44.500 I mean to do we need to continue to do that because we just 00:15:44.500 --> 00:15:50.500 we keep dying we continue to suffer abuses and a few things 00:15:50.500 --> 00:15:54.100 change a few things within the system change. 00:15:54.100 --> 00:15:58.900 What do you feel like as writers is maybe the most constructive 00:15:58.900 --> 00:16:01.400 thing to do just to keep riding. 00:16:05.100 --> 00:16:09.000 Thought that my heart, you know, what I did wasn't designed 00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:14.000 to make white people do the right thing that at least in the 00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:19.200 near-term is probably beyond the powers of I thought the responsibility 00:16:19.200 --> 00:16:21.700 of my writing was the other black people know that they're 00:16:21.700 --> 00:16:26.200 not crazy that you see something it feels kind of way. 00:16:26.200 --> 00:16:31.900 But everybody is making excuses for why it's okay in a single-parent 00:16:31.900 --> 00:16:39.300 household study habits, you know, you eat too much fast food. 00:16:39.300 --> 00:16:45.400 Are you dropped out of any number of excuses to justify your 00:16:45.400 --> 00:16:48.200 reality of characterizes black life? 00:16:48.200 --> 00:16:53.100 You don't under white domination and I write most 00:16:54.100 --> 00:16:56.600 black folks know 00:16:57.700 --> 00:16:59.000 but they're not crazy. 00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:02.300 Yes. It is what you think it is you feel like you're being 00:17:02.300 --> 00:17:04.200 robbed to take advantage of you off. 00:17:04.900 --> 00:17:05.500 You know. 00:17:07.400 --> 00:17:10.000 That's near this is this is it is my calling, 00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:12.800 you know, that educates other folks. 00:17:12.800 --> 00:17:14.100 I'm very happy for that. 00:17:14.100 --> 00:17:18.100 But I don't think it would be a good idea to base one's curio 00:17:18.100 --> 00:17:22.800 and at least I think that's a smart. 00:17:22.800 --> 00:17:28.400 I think that's certainly I think with you moving into I mean, 00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:32.000 obviously it worked on the water dance ten years. 00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:35.300 I mean, that's that's not something you moving into something 00:17:35.300 --> 00:17:37.100 you were plugging away for a long time. 00:17:37.100 --> 00:17:47.000 That's it's going to be open and I think that ultimately 00:17:47.000 --> 00:17:50.700 people are going to have to figure it out for themselves. 00:17:50.700 --> 00:17:54.400 You need to we need to inspire people to be critical thinkers. 00:17:54.400 --> 00:17:56.900 I just hope that you don't be Scott's worst. 00:17:56.900 --> 00:17:57.900 No continue to do that. 00:17:57.900 --> 00:18:03.400 Also want to ask you how did the MacArthur genius Grant change 00:18:03.400 --> 00:18:07.000 things for you just to not just financially but also just 00:18:07.400 --> 00:18:14.300 For your process for baby how things operate it for you as a writer. 00:18:19.700 --> 00:18:24.700 Give it back if you know, you know. 00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:29.300 so 00:18:31.000 --> 00:18:32.000 I don't know quite a bit. 00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:33.700 I put something out to book sense then, 00:18:33.700 --> 00:18:36.400 you know and so certainly. 00:18:36.400 --> 00:18:38.300 You know, you have a front productivity. 00:18:38.300 --> 00:18:41.600 I enjoyed, you know, I was made significantly easier, 00:18:41.600 --> 00:18:47.200 you know, you know some amount of financial batting. 00:18:47.200 --> 00:18:49.500 So help a lot. 00:18:49.500 --> 00:18:56.600 But you said there was some pressure that came with it or orally 00:18:56.600 --> 00:18:57.700 some expectations. 00:18:58.100 --> 00:19:23.300 A lot of people in my work clothes by the time I started 00:19:23.300 --> 00:19:26.000 going to the younger you don't publish my first. 00:19:27.300 --> 00:19:31.800 Pizza Jonathan when I was 20, I think I've been writing some 00:19:31.800 --> 00:19:41.800 stuff. You know, I think for some people I felt like I kind 00:19:41.800 --> 00:19:43.000 of came out of nowhere and 00:19:44.300 --> 00:19:47.200 Show me the level of salmon in. 00:19:48.500 --> 00:19:50.500 You know, we have a small celebrity. 00:19:50.500 --> 00:19:52.200 That was there. 00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:54.400 You don't feel like it. 00:19:54.400 --> 00:19:55.200 It came out of nowhere. 00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:59.300 And so I think for my readership. 00:20:00.800 --> 00:20:05.300 Why say like this man when my friends was beautiful struggle 00:20:05.300 --> 00:20:07.000 came out in 2008. 00:20:08.300 --> 00:20:10.400 You're reading when I first came out in. 00:20:12.200 --> 00:20:15.200 Can a 15 people that have fun with like a lady to me? 00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:29.400 And then after that I walked in the room and it was like 50 00:20:29.400 --> 00:20:32.500 people there, you know all which is all the chairs were filled 00:20:32.500 --> 00:20:39.500 up and I thought wow this could be my life if this would be 00:20:39.500 --> 00:20:42.800 awesome. If I get 50 people in a room that cared about what I 00:20:42.800 --> 00:20:44.800 had to say, that would be great, 00:20:44.800 --> 00:20:50.400 you know, and I didn't I didn't publish a book that I was nine 00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:54.100 and pay back in another book for another six years and then 00:20:54.100 --> 00:20:55.500 went between the world and me came out. 00:20:55.500 --> 00:20:58.600 I mean like five hundred people, you know, 00:20:58.600 --> 00:21:01.500 and I went out to Seattle 1800 people search 00:21:04.200 --> 00:21:07.300 what the hell just happened, you know and then and you have 00:21:07.300 --> 00:21:08.400 to understand it like if you 00:21:09.300 --> 00:21:11.200 We write a book at least when I write a book. 00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:14.600 It's always a challenge is not like 00:21:15.600 --> 00:21:18.100 hey, I'm going to do this and a bunch of people to like it. 00:21:18.100 --> 00:21:19.400 It's like will this work? 00:21:19.400 --> 00:21:21.500 I'm not sure right now. 00:21:21.500 --> 00:21:28.200 That's a yard. 00:21:29.300 --> 00:21:36.800 Wildly imagine you know that take some getting used to personal 00:21:36.800 --> 00:21:42.800 and certainly 99% of the actual it was positive, 00:21:42.800 --> 00:21:46.900 you know, but probably, you know 1% was not and you know where 00:21:46.900 --> 00:21:48.800 it came from and how it came yet. I 00:21:48.800 --> 00:21:54.300 will I just I wasn't completely dead. 00:21:54.300 --> 00:21:57.300 I mean, I think we saw I mean some some some something 00:21:57.300 --> 00:22:03.000 similar with with a friend nikole hannah-jones with the 6019 00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:06.600 project, you know, something like this massive, 00:22:06.600 --> 00:22:09.700 you know Wonderful reception she got and then there was this 00:22:09.700 --> 00:22:15.100 this corner of folks who just had there's something to say and 00:22:15.100 --> 00:22:18.900 it's always going to be some folks who have something to say, 00:22:18.900 --> 00:22:19.500 you know, 00:22:20.400 --> 00:22:22.400 I didn't say that in my case. 00:22:22.400 --> 00:22:28.600 It was much more constructive generally in two or three people. 00:22:30.500 --> 00:22:33.500 It was mostly like 00:22:35.700 --> 00:22:41.100 malintention in a cold case Nicole Nicole case. 00:22:41.100 --> 00:22:42.400 I think it's the exact opposite. 00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:46.400 I think there are a handful of people who are well-intentioned, 00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:49.600 you know who have no issues with with with the project and I think 00:22:49.600 --> 00:22:56.300 the vast vast majority of Milan tension and should not be taken 00:22:56.300 --> 00:22:58.100 seriously at all. 00:22:58.100 --> 00:23:00.900 So are you. 00:23:00.900 --> 00:23:04.900 I have never seen anything like what happened to call it took 00:23:04.900 --> 00:23:07.600 some getting used to for me but between between the world and 00:23:07.600 --> 00:23:08.200 me a case for reparations. 00:23:09.500 --> 00:23:16.100 Writing get an executive order that didn't happen. 00:23:16.100 --> 00:23:22.200 So no, I mean a whole nother level of it and it takes a 00:23:22.200 --> 00:23:25.200 particular kind of string to sit in a seat. 00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:30.500 Where is happening and say I'm going to keep doing what I do. 00:23:30.500 --> 00:23:32.100 You know what I mean? 00:23:32.100 --> 00:23:37.300 And My Hope in the cold is that that she does that. 00:23:37.300 --> 00:23:41.300 You know, 1619 is not going to Apex off of North Korea is certainly 00:23:41.300 --> 00:23:42.500 not the Apex of a potential. 00:23:42.500 --> 00:23:46.400 I know that but that you know, 00:23:46.400 --> 00:23:48.500 she she she she keep going, you know, 00:23:48.500 --> 00:23:50.400 you got a tune everything out manual. 00:23:54.500 --> 00:23:58.400 I know who beat 1619 I know this is one of the differences 00:23:58.400 --> 00:24:03.000 between a black rhino and a white right because of the way things 00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:11.100 are set up a reading and literacy and knowledge and education 00:24:11.100 --> 00:24:14.400 don't pay off with black people in the same way that it they 00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:15.300 pay off of white people. 00:24:15.300 --> 00:24:19.500 They generally do not allow you to obviate the effect of segregation 00:24:19.500 --> 00:24:30.700 for instance certainly did not read the love that that my mom 00:24:30.700 --> 00:24:36.100 and my dad, you know, we have all grown up around voracious 00:24:36.100 --> 00:24:39.900 readers who work regular, you know, working class jobs you in 00:24:39.900 --> 00:24:41.400 another world would be professors. 00:24:41.400 --> 00:24:44.200 You're somewhere you're my mom and dad went where exactly 00:24:44.200 --> 00:24:48.200 like that. The flip side of that is that you actually have a very 00:24:48.200 --> 00:24:52.700 educated readership among, you know, the working class, 00:24:52.700 --> 00:24:53.500 you know. 00:24:54.500 --> 00:24:58.000 You know and I'm not saying that no more white people that know 00:24:58.000 --> 00:25:01.400 you don't white people who read but the proportion is very very 00:25:01.400 --> 00:25:08.400 different for black folks coming up from DC and a conductor. 00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:10.500 The train is like you I read such and such. 00:25:10.500 --> 00:25:12.400 Thank you for doing that. 00:25:12.400 --> 00:25:14.000 You don't want security guard. 00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:17.900 What do you got to be real with you, 00:25:17.900 --> 00:25:20.300 you know nothing and so 00:25:21.700 --> 00:25:27.500 there is a thing that happens with social media wherein you can 00:25:27.500 --> 00:25:32.200 think that the people that are going after you are somehow 00:25:32.200 --> 00:25:36.000 part of the conversation that you're having but but they're 00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:42.100 actually not I'm coming when you get to Nicole's I like the doorman 00:25:42.100 --> 00:25:50.700 I never will I never will you know is so you just have to 00:25:50.700 --> 00:25:51.400 remember that. 00:25:52.900 --> 00:25:59.800 Play the phrase from the black teaches the back the black fireman 00:25:59.800 --> 00:26:13.900 and they have no idea why it took me a long time to understand 00:26:13.900 --> 00:26:17.500 that things man. 00:26:17.500 --> 00:26:20.300 It's always when I go home to Cleveland and you know, 00:26:20.300 --> 00:26:24.500 the black folks always, you know, stop me and say hey I saw you 00:26:24.500 --> 00:26:28.800 on this TV or I read this and that's that's always the best thing 00:26:28.800 --> 00:26:29.500 in the world. 00:26:29.500 --> 00:26:43.800 You know what that is nasty little bit more about the ending. 00:26:43.800 --> 00:26:47.200 Of course, you don't you spoke to Brianna Taylor's mother 00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:49.700 and what it what point in the process. 00:26:49.700 --> 00:26:52.600 Did you decide you no end in 00:26:52.900 --> 00:26:57.100 Camilla decide to add that to the film inside that this had to 00:26:57.100 --> 00:26:57.700 be a part of it. 00:27:04.700 --> 00:27:08.600 Gracious enough to do sit and listen to me. 00:27:08.600 --> 00:27:10.300 I had gone down there to cover the protest. 00:27:10.300 --> 00:27:16.100 What year was a remarkable experience and I sat with her one 00:27:16.100 --> 00:27:18.300 day not to laugh like a half an hour, 00:27:18.300 --> 00:27:23.700 and she told that story that is actually in the film when I went 00:27:23.700 --> 00:27:27.100 back. My feeling was that there was nothing I could say about 00:27:27.100 --> 00:27:30.200 we are to tell all the protests. 00:27:30.200 --> 00:27:34.100 With top tamika's words that I said. 00:27:34.100 --> 00:27:35.600 This wasn't going to do that. 00:27:35.600 --> 00:27:37.500 I didn't have the words for that. I 00:27:37.500 --> 00:27:38.700 didn't know we are not like that. 00:27:38.700 --> 00:27:42.400 So I just had this idea to listen if you would just let me 00:27:42.400 --> 00:27:43.300 know. Talk to you. 00:27:44.200 --> 00:27:48.100 You know every couple of days for about an hour and I think we 00:27:48.100 --> 00:27:53.000 can pull something special together and I did that but I still 00:27:53.000 --> 00:27:57.200 have the tapes and record it and Camilla asked if she could 00:27:57.200 --> 00:27:59.900 hear them and I'll share them but you know what she decided 00:27:59.900 --> 00:28:01.900 that that that that part actually fit pretty. 00:28:01.900 --> 00:28:11.000 Well, I think you know who are the actors the activist interpret 00:28:11.000 --> 00:28:14.100 something and then I decided Point you're not hearing interpretation 00:28:14.100 --> 00:28:16.500 any more yet here in the actual person say this what happened? 00:28:17.100 --> 00:28:20.900 Yeah, cuz that's the thing is I mean you will win this light 00:28:20.900 --> 00:28:21.500 comes on the screen. 00:28:21.500 --> 00:28:25.800 I'm expecting to see maybe a performer come on and perform 00:28:25.800 --> 00:28:30.500 the words and then you hear and you know instantly wait a minute. 00:28:30.500 --> 00:28:31.200 That's your mother. 00:28:31.200 --> 00:28:34.400 Oh man and in my heart just sank. 00:28:35.600 --> 00:28:40.100 And and I knew cuz I read the piece I said wait a minute 00:28:40.100 --> 00:28:45.700 all Bandits of the tapes from the interview and I've already 00:28:45.700 --> 00:28:47.500 been through at that point in the film. 00:28:47.500 --> 00:28:52.500 You been through what I was calling out of your words and 00:28:53.600 --> 00:28:59.100 Your letter to your son and it is it is heavy and just telling 00:28:59.100 --> 00:28:59.700 folks to me. 00:28:59.700 --> 00:29:03.400 You know, I'm not steel yourself for that real. 00:29:03.400 --> 00:29:10.400 Yeah. Yeah, cuz I think that you know, 00:29:10.400 --> 00:29:12.700 no matter what locality people are from, 00:29:12.700 --> 00:29:17.100 you know me from Cleveland with Tamir folks from st. 00:29:17.100 --> 00:29:21.700 Louis with my brown in a list is some folks who can maybe relate 00:29:21.700 --> 00:29:24.600 particularly to a particular tragedy. It 00:29:24.600 --> 00:29:30.300 may be a little bit more closely and that one for the folks 00:29:30.300 --> 00:29:38.000 they'll never ever let it go and they shouldn't they shouldn't 00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:42.500 even garcete the Atlantic, you know before she left there in 2018. 00:29:42.500 --> 00:29:44.600 I know that you know, that's something that's you know, 00:29:44.600 --> 00:29:46.600 they're still near and dear to your heart and you went from 00:29:46.600 --> 00:29:50.400 my block in basically every day to now basically not commenting 00:29:50.400 --> 00:29:51.200 much at all. 00:29:51.200 --> 00:29:51.900 Not at Piney. 00:29:51.900 --> 00:29:53.400 What is it like now? 00:29:53.500 --> 00:29:55.100 Are you not to have to you know, 00:29:55.100 --> 00:29:56.600 when we talked a little bit about this already? 00:29:56.600 --> 00:30:02.000 You not, you know, putting an opinion out into the you know, the 00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:04.700 public sphere everyday not having to generate that, 00:30:04.700 --> 00:30:06.300 you know, not on Twitter anymore. 00:30:06.300 --> 00:30:09.200 What kind of writing process what are you spending your time 00:30:09.200 --> 00:30:11.200 doing? In the meantime? 00:30:11.200 --> 00:30:16.600 What kind of activities are you doing to know disengage 00:30:16.600 --> 00:30:32.500 with the world you may be to not engage with the world but what 00:30:32.500 --> 00:30:37.600 I can say is I'm a good person and I think maybe more importantly 00:30:37.600 --> 00:30:38.600 I'm a much better person. 00:30:39.500 --> 00:30:42.700 I've said this and you know, I'll say it again, 00:30:42.700 --> 00:30:45.300 I think. 00:30:47.400 --> 00:30:49.700 Leaving here. You have to start from the recycle. 00:30:49.700 --> 00:30:53.000 It will all fallible people and we have aspects of ourselves 00:30:53.000 --> 00:30:57.400 and we struggled to control and let me just speak about myself. 00:30:57.400 --> 00:30:58.400 Let me just call myself. 00:30:59.800 --> 00:31:03.600 I found that Twitter appeal. 00:31:05.700 --> 00:31:10.400 O'Reilly's didn't feel too and didn't elicit from the best part 00:31:10.400 --> 00:31:10.700 of me. 00:31:11.600 --> 00:31:14.200 it told from 00:31:16.200 --> 00:31:19.000 my meanness is pulled from 00:31:21.500 --> 00:31:22.500 my arrogance 00:31:23.600 --> 00:31:28.800 it pulled from my blood thinners my desire for Vengeance 00:31:28.800 --> 00:31:30.300 on other people. 00:31:31.500 --> 00:31:34.300 Maybe it said something about me or whatever. 00:31:34.300 --> 00:31:45.500 It wasn't, you know anybody else that? 00:31:47.000 --> 00:31:50.200 You pull from an appeal to it didn't appeal to my nuanced 00:31:50.200 --> 00:31:50.800 in the field. 00:31:54.700 --> 00:31:57.600 You know, I stepped in and only in a way to show your other 00:31:57.600 --> 00:31:59.500 people. How smart I was so. 00:32:01.600 --> 00:32:04.200 I found it to be corrupting, you know, 00:32:04.200 --> 00:32:07.800 and I don't know I mean, you know, 00:32:07.800 --> 00:32:08.600 obviously 00:32:14.700 --> 00:32:17.500 Probably what happened with I think I had like a million 00:32:17.500 --> 00:32:18.700 point. 00:32:19.500 --> 00:32:33.800 And I just remember thinking it was just like I am participating 00:32:33.800 --> 00:32:37.300 in any sort of debate that at the end of the day. 00:32:37.300 --> 00:32:40.600 It's really don't look like it's enlightening anybody. 00:32:41.600 --> 00:32:45.700 You know, I think what I'm doing is if I'm participating. 00:32:47.200 --> 00:32:50.300 You know, I'm pulling out my night if and I'm looking to shank 00:32:50.300 --> 00:32:54.900 somebody, you know, and there are other people you know what 00:32:54.900 --> 00:32:57.100 I mean who look into the shank me, 00:32:57.100 --> 00:33:10.100 you know, and hope some people University Shine for me. 00:33:10.100 --> 00:33:12.200 I don't want to be part of that set. 00:33:13.300 --> 00:33:18.100 You know, I love the private active writing. 00:33:18.100 --> 00:33:21.900 I like being a conversation about writing. 00:33:21.900 --> 00:33:25.300 I do enjoy that brings me happiness. 00:33:25.300 --> 00:33:28.700 And like I said moment I was like wow, 00:33:28.700 --> 00:33:31.700 this is pretty terrible and this is not happy. 00:33:32.800 --> 00:33:33.800 So why am I here? 00:33:35.300 --> 00:33:35.900 You know what? I 00:33:35.900 --> 00:33:36.900 mean, like why I like like, 00:33:36.900 --> 00:33:41.100 you know what the worst possible thing would be to treat out 00:33:41.100 --> 00:33:46.700 all negative my experience, you know was at that moment and plead 00:33:46.700 --> 00:33:48.400 for it to be but I don't know where am I doing? 00:33:48.400 --> 00:33:50.000 What am I doing? 00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:56.600 You know if I went to a bar and people acting a kind of 00:33:56.600 --> 00:34:02.300 waiting on a stool in the bar and say hey wants you guys United me. 00:34:02.300 --> 00:34:13.100 I know why am I so tired all the time, 00:34:13.100 --> 00:34:19.200 you know, I was in the wrong room brother, 00:34:19.200 --> 00:34:24.200 you know, you know, I think I'm in a much better one now. 00:34:24.200 --> 00:34:29.500 So I really firmly believe that people should take this short 00:34:29.500 --> 00:34:30.300 time on this Earth. 00:34:31.300 --> 00:34:36.800 Seriously, seriously, and if you are spending your time engaging 00:34:36.800 --> 00:34:42.900 in anything that on some deep fundamental level makes you unhappy. 00:34:46.500 --> 00:34:47.900 You don't think about it. 00:34:47.900 --> 00:34:49.300 You think about it? 00:34:49.300 --> 00:34:52.300 Think about how little time you know all of us how you know 00:34:52.300 --> 00:34:59.500 here in this was even before I got to a point where I would 00:34:59.500 --> 00:35:02.800 get a kind of sick feeling like when I would get fries. 00:35:04.400 --> 00:35:10.200 I feel the same way sometimes. 00:35:14.800 --> 00:35:18.400 You know, like I was engaging in something, 00:35:18.400 --> 00:35:22.000 you know, like maybe it's part of that person said that but perhaps 00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:25.300 I shouldn't see it if I shouldn't you all of it because I said 00:35:25.300 --> 00:35:29.400 because we're constantly getting feedback from people. 00:35:29.400 --> 00:35:32.400 I was having this conversation with somebody recently where 00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:34.400 I just hit this guy take the praise. 00:35:34.400 --> 00:35:36.400 Sometimes I just take it and I just kind of Set It Off to 00:35:36.400 --> 00:35:39.800 the side in a thank you very much to make a person feel appreciated 00:35:39.800 --> 00:35:42.200 and then just kind of Set It Off to the side and just keep 00:35:42.200 --> 00:35:44.700 on going because that's not why I'm here. 00:35:44.700 --> 00:35:47.400 That's not what we're doing this when I didn't hear for that, 00:35:47.400 --> 00:35:52.600 you know their appreciation and that's nice that you know, 00:35:53.200 --> 00:35:57.300 How do people appreciate it makes you feel good, 00:35:57.300 --> 00:36:03.100 and it's nothing wrong with that point and I don't know this is 00:36:03.100 --> 00:36:05.900 how it was designed to face over. 00:36:05.900 --> 00:36:08.800 But it becomes a point where it's like you're putting too much 00:36:08.800 --> 00:36:15.000 syrup on pancakes is too much too much and you know what? 00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:16.100 I mean, you should you should withdraw. 00:36:18.300 --> 00:36:20.600 Yeah. Yeah, and it is some point, 00:36:20.600 --> 00:36:24.700 you know, it just becomes of the uniform where ya like you said 00:36:24.700 --> 00:36:24.900 you 00:36:26.100 --> 00:36:29.200 You just you drowning in it. 00:36:29.200 --> 00:36:32.800 And you know, what food is good when it's been drowned, 00:36:32.800 --> 00:36:33.800 you know. 00:36:35.700 --> 00:36:45.700 yeah, well your son is now college-age and so is tell me about 00:36:45.700 --> 00:36:50.700 his experience, you know reading this week to what extent 00:36:50.700 --> 00:36:56.100 he read it when he was younger and whether not you feel like 00:36:56.100 --> 00:36:56.500 there's 00:36:57.900 --> 00:37:01.600 Anything different you would right now to him now that he's 00:37:01.600 --> 00:37:01.800 older. 00:37:02.900 --> 00:37:05.200 Tell me what the first thing you got to understand is that the 00:37:05.200 --> 00:37:07.700 whole notion of a ladder is artifice. 00:37:07.700 --> 00:37:09.200 I mean, it's a it's a it's a device. 00:37:09.200 --> 00:37:18.300 I used to know he write the book in phases, 00:37:18.300 --> 00:37:20.400 you know, rough drafts and stuff like that song. 00:37:27.800 --> 00:37:29.900 I don't know if I went by Between the world and me now, 00:37:29.900 --> 00:37:34.100 you know, I don't know, you know, 00:37:34.100 --> 00:37:41.000 I'm probably riding but I was right right now when it comes 00:37:41.000 --> 00:37:45.200 to this this particular book, you really took me like you wrote it 00:37:45.200 --> 00:37:50.200 for him because of the issei was a device or you feel like 00:37:50.200 --> 00:37:52.700 it was written for you if you like. 00:37:52.700 --> 00:37:55.100 Why do you feel like it just came out of you? 00:37:57.700 --> 00:37:58.900 Every book is written. 00:37:58.900 --> 00:38:00.500 It might not be published to me. 00:38:00.500 --> 00:38:08.400 It is for me, but it's written for me and I really do. 00:38:10.600 --> 00:38:14.400 I don't want to engage with artists and writers who make things 00:38:14.400 --> 00:38:15.000 for me. 00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:20.100 I want to engage with artists and writers who? 00:38:21.400 --> 00:38:24.300 Are expressing something is really really deep with them that 00:38:24.300 --> 00:38:26.200 they can't hold anymore. 00:38:27.300 --> 00:38:29.400 And that's how I felt right in between the world and me there 00:38:29.400 --> 00:38:31.000 was a sentiment that I just was really, 00:38:31.000 --> 00:38:34.100 you know, trying to find a way to express. 00:38:35.600 --> 00:38:39.800 I thought about money readers to feel anything. 00:38:39.800 --> 00:38:41.300 It was more of an emotional response. 00:38:41.300 --> 00:38:43.400 You're always trying to convey. 00:38:45.200 --> 00:38:48.800 You know the emotions that I'm feeling off the page and enter 00:38:48.800 --> 00:38:52.000 the reader but dismiss actually writing it, 00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:55.700 you know really was me that was for me, 00:38:55.700 --> 00:38:59.300 you know, you never have any idea how that's going to turn out. 00:38:59.300 --> 00:39:02.100 You know, you just don't know you don't know if you want it when 00:39:02.100 --> 00:39:02.900 I hear what you have to say, 00:39:02.900 --> 00:39:09.100 you know, I was very fortunate that also your conversation 00:39:09.100 --> 00:39:14.900 with the with Oprah about the water dancer and one of the things 00:39:14.900 --> 00:39:20.900 that you won't talk about was the the need to go to the sites 00:39:20.900 --> 00:39:26.100 around the country to enter for us in a special in a black 00:39:26.100 --> 00:39:29.500 people white people for us to go to the site specially 00:39:29.500 --> 00:39:35.700 Blackhawk to places like Monticello to see these cabins in places 00:39:35.700 --> 00:39:39.900 like me know that inspired the setting that you told that you 00:39:39.900 --> 00:39:43.700 write about in the book right now. 00:39:45.200 --> 00:39:46.200 Travel for quite a bit. 00:39:46.200 --> 00:39:49.500 What do you feel like this is environment that we're living 00:39:49.500 --> 00:39:54.100 in how do you feel like it's may be affecting our ability 00:39:54.100 --> 00:40:00.800 to you know, I guess imagine or ability to research your ability 00:40:00.800 --> 00:40:03.700 to experience things and maybe the way that we should 00:40:10.900 --> 00:40:16.900 I've been friends with for a long time. 00:40:16.900 --> 00:40:21.400 You know how I feel themselves and correctly fill themselves 00:40:21.400 --> 00:40:22.600 to be very much. 00:40:22.600 --> 00:40:26.600 You're actually connected to between the world and me some of my 00:40:26.600 --> 00:40:28.800 actually, you know, mentioned it between the world and me and 00:40:28.800 --> 00:40:32.500 we are trying to figure out some Safeway and we can all watch 00:40:32.500 --> 00:40:35.500 it together in person and lo and behold there is no safe way 00:40:35.500 --> 00:40:39.200 and we can watch it in person life is about experiences 00:40:39.200 --> 00:40:43.200 and moments and we are being robbed of those right now. 00:40:43.200 --> 00:40:45.500 I don't know when the last time I saw, 00:40:45.500 --> 00:40:51.200 you know, imma see my son from a distance mostly mail. 00:40:53.900 --> 00:40:56.100 And I'm really really close friend with a doctor, 00:40:56.100 --> 00:40:58.300 you know in Chicago working on the front lines. 00:40:58.300 --> 00:41:02.100 You know who I get over it pretty regularly see haven't seen 00:41:02.100 --> 00:41:05.300 him knowing. You know, it's going to come up on it's going to 00:41:05.300 --> 00:41:06.100 get really quickly. 00:41:06.100 --> 00:41:11.100 Those social bonds are so precious and if you extrapolate 00:41:11.100 --> 00:41:11.800 out, 00:41:12.800 --> 00:41:13.600 that 00:41:14.600 --> 00:41:20.700 a city like New York where so much of Life takes place in public 00:41:20.700 --> 00:41:24.500 and out on the street the fact that 00:41:25.900 --> 00:41:27.700 Not just frankly on the federal level, 00:41:27.700 --> 00:41:30.700 but certainly in the spring on the state and intensity 00:41:30.700 --> 00:41:32.300 level, you know. 00:41:33.300 --> 00:41:35.200 That public space was left. 00:41:35.200 --> 00:41:39.100 So unprotected. It's just been devastating. 00:41:39.100 --> 00:41:43.100 She's been utterly and completely completely devastated. 00:41:46.100 --> 00:41:50.100 Grover norquist had a quote, you know it always off on concluded 00:41:50.100 --> 00:41:52.600 that your government down to the size, 00:41:52.600 --> 00:41:56.900 but you can stick it in the bathtub and around what I happened 00:41:56.900 --> 00:42:01.400 that having a fortune with 250,000 Americans are being around 00:42:01.400 --> 00:42:03.800 with it. And so I often think 00:42:05.000 --> 00:42:06.400 What is a state? 00:42:07.300 --> 00:42:11.100 I can't believe you thought what it what is the state if it can 00:42:11.100 --> 00:42:15.600 prevent the deaths of a quarter-million accounting people 00:42:15.600 --> 00:42:21.500 can't save a million people from a senseless death. 00:42:21.500 --> 00:42:24.100 What again is a state? 00:42:25.700 --> 00:42:31.500 What is the purpose and I think perhaps that's the point. 00:42:31.500 --> 00:42:42.600 You know our sense of ourselves as a public afraid, 00:42:42.600 --> 00:42:47.100 I think it's been and devastated. 00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:51.000 I mean this is this is part of the problem when you have a 00:42:51.000 --> 00:42:56.100 party and charge that is their agenda is oligarchy and white 00:42:56.100 --> 00:42:59.900 supremacy and there they have no interest in government 00:42:59.900 --> 00:43:03.200 and at least at Federal level and so, 00:43:03.200 --> 00:43:07.100 you know, they let things go and it certainly no interest 00:43:07.100 --> 00:43:08.700 in accountability. So 00:43:10.100 --> 00:43:23.600 a very long can I really say this attacking things that a public 00:43:23.600 --> 00:43:29.800 and attacking the idea of a public and reinforcing this idea 00:43:29.800 --> 00:43:35.400 that you know, the private space is sacred and not know the public 00:43:35.400 --> 00:43:37.600 space should be you don't hand it over, 00:43:37.600 --> 00:43:42.600 you know, either 222 private institutions, you don't I mean 00:43:42.600 --> 00:43:47.200 or at the very least our Collective investment and you should 00:43:47.200 --> 00:43:50.800 be blessed and you know, you can stretch that from welfare 00:43:50.800 --> 00:43:53.900 reform, you know to the attempt so, 00:43:53.900 --> 00:43:56.700 you know privatize Social Security, but you know thankfully 00:43:56.700 --> 00:44:01.700 did did not succeed to a recovery effort that certainly, 00:44:01.700 --> 00:44:03.700 you know had public funds. 00:44:04.700 --> 00:44:08.900 You know or I access to public funds or public action may be the 00:44:08.900 --> 00:44:12.000 better way of putting it on governmental action when it needed 00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:15.200 to be saved that had very little governmental action on behalf 00:44:15.200 --> 00:44:21.500 of citizens who lost their homes to the idea that there was a way that 00:44:21.500 --> 00:44:23.800 we deal with your social major social problems, 00:44:23.800 --> 00:44:28.900 you know any in Black communities in this country is to the police 00:44:28.900 --> 00:44:32.100 at the jail, and I that we meet it with force that we don't 00:44:32.100 --> 00:44:38.700 need it with any sort of public program set a constant attack 00:44:38.700 --> 00:44:43.400 on public schools, you know, and so and so and it's it's a very 00:44:43.400 --> 00:44:44.400 unfortunate. 00:44:45.900 --> 00:44:52.100 Sedition and in pain now in the situation when people are bemoaning 00:44:52.100 --> 00:44:57.100 the public health of this country, but how can you have public 00:44:57.100 --> 00:45:00.000 health people don't believe in the public. 00:45:01.500 --> 00:45:05.400 If people don't want some fundamental level don't believe 00:45:05.400 --> 00:45:08.700 in the value of a public of public things. 00:45:11.800 --> 00:45:14.600 You did what you did you do what you can for as much as 00:45:14.600 --> 00:45:16.400 Trump in this sentence. 00:45:16.400 --> 00:45:19.900 Not just NOCO NOCO Republican, you know, 00:45:19.900 --> 00:45:22.800 there was a consistent stream. 00:45:23.600 --> 00:45:24.300 Call Mom. 00:45:26.400 --> 00:45:29.300 I don't know just just attack, you know, 00:45:29.300 --> 00:45:33.700 I don't know only defense that there really is made a public 00:45:33.700 --> 00:45:36.300 things are things that are not actually opened like the police, 00:45:36.300 --> 00:45:40.200 you know, but that all public 101 on their Facebook really 00:45:40.200 --> 00:45:51.600 are not a problem, but not not that's not public at all. 00:45:53.900 --> 00:45:56.100 My brother I want to respect your time, 00:45:56.100 --> 00:46:02.000 and I just want to appreciate you for doing this and for for 00:46:02.000 --> 00:46:05.100 joining me and for this conversation at thank you very much. 00:46:05.100 --> 00:46:06.200 We appreciate.